1. A Pneumatological Consensus?
by John N Veronica on Saturday, 28 May 2011 at 12:26
In a pluralistic country, might we perhaps discern how much, on the whole, its people
cooperate with the Spirit?
Might we observe how well its:
1) culture sanctifies
2) history orients
3) society empowers
4) economy heals &
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2. 5) politics save ----------- its people?
Might the secular there manifest, for better or worse, a "pneumatological consensus" with
its implicit theology, eschatology, ecclesiology, sacramentology & soteriology?
Of course, we are talking about proleptic (anticipatory) realizations of Kingdom values that
are yet unfolding toward a future fullness.
This would clearly differ from any overly dialectical perspective that would essentially run
counter to a robustly incarnational and profusely pneumatological approach to all of reality,
even while recognizing significant differences in any degree of cooperation with the Spirit.
Of course, failures to cooperate might result from either inabilities (due to poor formation
or even deformative influences) or refusals (known to God alone).
Also, this might differ, somewhat, from any Niebuhrian realism that would draw too sharp a
distinction between the eschatological and temporal significance of Gospel imperatives?
For example, nonviolence then but not now?
Or from any exegetical interpretations that would too sharply distinguish between our
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3. personal vocations and political statecraft? For example, coercion there but not here? Or
that would suggest so-called dispensational distinctions? For example, signs & wonders then
but not now, there but not here)?
And we might introduce a distinction between the Gospel's robustly unitive norms (how to
live in loving intimacy with God and others) and general revelation's merely moral norms
(how to live in harmony with God, others, creation & self, pursuing what's good and right,
avoiding what's evil and wrong), morality realized as a by-product of the former, an end-
product of the latter, necessary in any case. Because of our radical human finitude and
sinfulness (personal, social & institutional), any sanctioned departures from these unitive
norms would represent, then, no theoretical theological capitulations (eisegesis even) but,
rather, practical pastoral accommodations (for example, regarding any use of coercive
violence). At any rate, these unitive norms - and not any essentially moral norms, which are
otherwise transparent to human reason without the benefit of special revelation(s) -
differentiate the Gospel brand in the marketplace. Love is a suitable means to the ends of
justice but its unitive aims clearly exceed those, even breaking open a new category.
ARCHIVING FB WALL DIALOGUE:
Leah Sophia and Warren Aldrich like this.
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4. Warren Aldrich I like the last sentence.
6 hours ago · Like
Brenda Craig Cantu You make my brain hurt
6 hours ago · Like · 2 people
John N Veronica that's why I tucked it away in the Notes rather than splashing it on the
Wall ... to avoid traumatic brain injuries :) but if I get some help from others in
understanding that stuff myself, I'll be able to write a good translation (which will be much
longer but mo'better!) ...
5 hours ago · Like
Warren Aldrich It's very good brain exercise is what it is. Although do I aspire to be a
Theo-wonk?
5 hours ago · Unlike · 1 person
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5. John N Veronica
I wonder, Warren. Philip Clayton suggests not, perhaps! I think there is a role for
academic theology but sometimes we lose sight of the fact that theology is much more a
practical science and much less a speculative theoretical one with implications that are far
more performative than informative. If that's the case, and I believe it is, then its work
should always take place within a pastoral framework with some meaningful attempt to
translate it so others can DO something with it. Otherwise, it becomes sterile, idle ...
3 hours ago · Like
Warren Aldrich
I suppose if I throw out an opinion or thoughts than I'll also find out if I'm on point here.
First, In my very unhumble opinion, I think something has not worked well in the Church
culture (if we trust Barna's studies), much less the society at large. I'm sure there has been
an effect but it seems to be lessoning.
Anyway, if you are arguing for more, better, different pastoral care then I am out of this
discussion because I am not in favor of the figure up front and the listeners down below. It's
clearly traditional but not very arguably Biblical.
I'm reworking the quote into paragraphs because I find it hard to concentrate and
understand when it's in block form.
Brb.
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6. 2 hours ago · Like
Warren Aldrich Btw, did I already say I like the last sentence?
Another question; Do these norms, if they exist, really differentiate the Gospel brand or
can we find good people doing good things for good reasons in many places? I'm beginning
to wonder if there is such a thing as the "Gospel brand except in very discrete and individual
lives making a difference in the world in very signifigant but unnoticed ways.
2 hours ago · Like
John N Veronica
The pastoral context was limited to the chore of translating theological jargon into
practical living skills, so the better term may have been pragmatic rather than pastoral
framework, and for the reasons you mentioned, Warren. At the same time, while I affirm
(and encourage) noninstitutional vehicles, P2P outreach and such, I see them as
complementary to and not over against institutional & (with qualifications) hierarchical
approaches.
about an hour ago · Like
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7. Warren Aldrich
Forgive me if I hear you just saying that we have the Bible, then we have theological
jargon, which then we need someone to translate that into "practical living skills?" Certainly
I have run far afield of the OP but for me at least it's part and parcel of a problem? And your
OP wonders about the impact or not of what it is we endorse as Christians.
Don't get me wrong, the beauty of your OP is that it succinctly and quickly states the
thesis while incorporating many ideas associated with it. The problem for some of us is
being familiar with the words and style.
about an hour ago · Like
John N Veronica
And keeping with the same theme, while addressing your question about norms,
d'accord, again. The whole point of my exploration is that we might more broadly conceive
just when and where and in whom we might encounter the Spirit! The unitive vs moral
norm distinction moreso differentiates the Old & New Testaments, as I see it. Keep in mind,
though, that 'good people doing good things for good reasons' characterizes moral norms.
Our unitive norms entail a striving for loving intimacy, relating as lovers. So, what I am
saying is that morality is not what separates the Gospel messages from other messages b/c
anyone can do morality, which is transparent to human reason without the benefit of
special revelation, which is why we see good people doing good things for good reasons
everywhere. The Good News tells us that we are loved beyond imagining by a God, Who
wants us to relate to Him as Daddy, or, if one prefers, as Betrothed.
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8. To some extent, this unitive striving can be distinguished from those practices of the East
that are ordered toward gifting one with an experience of absolute unitary being, which I
consider an intuition of intraobjective identity, our great causal connectedness, reality's
immense solidarity. The unitive striving gifts us with an intersubjective, interpersonal
intimacy. Both lead to compassion.
about an hour ago · Like
John N Veronica
Well, Warren, let's back up. The thrust of the post is that the Spirit just might be at work
in every history, every culture, every society, every economy and every political effort,
albeit in varying degrees. And the efficacies of the Spirit are being realized not just in the
past or future but now, not just here and here but there and there. And that the Spirit's
invitation takes us -- not without but -- way beyond mere moral & practical concerns to
robustly relational concerns. Good so far?
about an hour ago · Like
John N Veronica BTW, yes, the fugue presented in the OP is very densely packed.
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person
Warren Aldrich
8

9. If you didn't have me before, the phrase; "we are loved beyond imagining by a God, Who
wants us to relate to Him as Daddy, or, if one prefers, as Betrothed," gave me goosebumps.
If we're back at the question in essense has this made any difference in our society I
would say that probably only to the degree that these Betrothed has this truth inculcated.
Which I think is a very small, sad degree. The powerfulness of that intimacy and tender love
is traded for a fascination with the fear factor of guilt and hell. They don't live in harmony
very well at all.
about an hour ago · Like
Warren Aldrich Thus deepsixing effectively the "robustly relational concerns."
about an hour ago · Like
Warren Aldrich I'm good with it, I love it. I just think it exists superficially although in spots
of hearts that get God's love it may be lived and transformative. I agree that degree of love
is deeply affective of a society and culture.
about an hour ago · Like
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10. John N Veronica
Merton drew a distinction between humanization, where we move beyond being little
animals, and socialization, where we learn to function in society, and transformation, where
we "get" the Abba reality in our very bones (my way of putting it, not his). Our churches
have fostered a great deal of socialization (still a work of the Spirit per Lonergan's view) but
much less transformation per Merton (and Warren). Folks are still living in an Old Covenant
mindset.
about an hour ago · Like
John N Veronica Now, returning to the question of theologians, pastors and, I suppose,
ecclesiology?
about an hour ago · Like
Warren Aldrich
Well, those that love those can have that. In the style of "any stick to beat a dog with," I
only need enough to launch into my favorite subjecti and theme.
I may be a mystic but I'm also pragmatic. What works? How does it work? If's it's not, why
not? If theologians, pastors and ecclesiology supported that I'd love it for it's function even
if I don't feel drawn to any of the three, ok, except for my personal, more mystical theology.
10

11. Personally my psychological makeup may predispose me to have a bone to pick with the
authority of all of the above so I try to keep a perspective on that.
about an hour ago · Like
John N Veronica
What is at stake in adopting an interpretive stance toward reality involves relational
values & relationships, evaluative posits of various types (truth, beauty, goodness,
freedom/love), normative approaches (how to best avoid or acquire dis/values) and
descriptive accounts (what is that?).
To some extent, we can roughly map these endeavors as science (descriptive-truth),
philosophy (normative-goodness) and culture (evaluative-beauty). Religion is an interpretive
stance that takes us meta- via creed (truth), cult-ivation (beauty), code (goodness) and
community (relational).
The Spirit (based on Lukan Christology, too) orients, sanctifies, empowers, heals and saves
us and these functions are manifest in our churches, respectively, via eschatology, theology,
ecclesiology, sacrament and soteriology, mapping roughly over an otherwise, again
respectively, secular history, culture, society, economy & body politic.
More commonly, we see the terms orthodoxy (truth), orthopathy (beauty), orthopraxy
(goodness) and orthocommunio (community), as applied to our needs for believing,
desiring, behaving and belonging.
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12. A New Testament emphasis would, in my view, for purposes of formative
spirituality/development, while viewing all of these aspects as integral, would accord a
certain primacy to belonging, which then forms our desires, which then elicit our behaviors
which will nurture our interpretive stance or beliefs. And these beliefs engage our
participatory imagination way more than our propositional cognition, being way more
performative than informative, much more about practical living than theoretical
speculation.
This does not correspond, however, to the Old Covenant mindset, which certainly values
belonging, desiring, behaving and believing but seems to accord a primacy to believe this
and behave like that and then you can belong (and what's a desire?).
55 minutes ago · Like
John N Veronica
What we are doing in our dialogue is a theological task. We are unpacking our densely
packed jargonistic prose. There is nothing magical about jargon but it is an eminently useful
tool of any trade that consists, usually, of a shorthand that is highly nuanced, hence saving
time and space. When it is used, no problem, but it needs translating when being taken to a
different audience. And that's all that was about. And this is aside from any discussion of
ecclesiology or models of church, which, again, I don't see as mutually exclusive. I do see a
role for experts in descriptive, normative and theological sciences but that doesn't drive my
pneumatology or view of the Spirit at work in the world. We do want to collaboratively
pursue the most nearly perfect articulation of truth in creeds/myths, the most nearly
perfect celebrations of beauty in cult/liturgy, the most nearly perfect preservation of the
good in code/law and the most nearly perfect enjoyment of fellowship in community and
this will require our fostering of Lonergan's conversions: intellectual, affective, moral,
sociopolitical and religious, all toward the end of optimal value-realization. In that, there are
diverse ministries but one mission.
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13. 45 minutes ago · Like
Warren Aldrich
I'm so with you. Have you written a book I can read? Take that both ways. (I amuse
myself!)
"...belonging, which then forms our desires, which then elicit our behaviors which will
nurture our interpretive stance or beliefs. And these beliefs engage our participatory
imagination way more than our propositional cognition, being way more performative than
informative, much more about practical living than theoretical speculation."
Wouldn't that be something like living out of an identity?
I think most often in my 55 or so years of experience with 4 churches, mainly, right
behavior was emphasized dramatically over belonging. Belonging was given lip service, pun
intended, but never in an intimate, loving sense where vulnerability, transparency and
devotion was the norm as it generally is with a loving parent and child.
44 minutes ago · Like
John N Veronica re: Wouldn't that be something like living out of an identity?
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14. Wow, Warren! You sound like Thomas Merton :)
39 minutes ago · Like
Warren Aldrich Hey, between Nouwen, Tugwell, and Darin Hufford, I made a huge
turnaround in my theology and thus my life.
I prefer my Merton translated by Nouwen and Manning and others and they do a great
job of it I think.
35 minutes ago · Unlike · 1 person
Warren Aldrich Flattery will get you everywhere!!
34 minutes ago · Like
John N Veronica
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15. I did co-author an article with my favorite theologian, Amos Yong, last year. Msg me your
e-mail and I'll send it along. I did a LOT of jargon-translating for the editors but it is still for
the guild, so to speak. Give it a try; it has highlights you'll like and a good bit of Merton. If
that works for you, I do have a draft manuscript I'll share, again kinda for the guild. But my
desire is to get it all translated for a general audience one day; that desire is not a passion
yet ;)
29 minutes ago · Like
Warren Aldrich
Damn! After all these hours and my taking your note and reparagraphing it I go to your
profile and there it is the way you set it up. Such an assistance to understanding. Wikipedia
on a several words and phrases (and the conversation with you) have helped as well.
I love words just as words and also the meanings they convey especially when it's
meaning that is life changing or affirming or explanatory as your note is.
warrenaldrich@hotmail.com.
29 minutes ago · Like
Warren Aldrich
15

16. I think a certain amount of desire to dig for hidden gold sweetens the reward and I don't
enjoy simplistic thinking any more.
I once started reading National Review and was amazed at how many sentences I could
read without having one iota ...See more
24 minutes ago · Unlike · 1 person
John N Veronica Oh, I see what happened. You were reading it on my wall. Well, the
teasing out and unpacking is precisely what I was hoping to do. It is easier for me to do that
in dialogue rather than imaginary dialogue. So, please know how grateful I am for the
engagement and friendship, Warren. And be sure to check out my New Hampshire-inspired
(Lake Winnipesaukee ) video: Ain't No Better Way.
I affirm the mystic charism, too.
21 minutes ago · Like
Warren Aldrich Interesting. I am much more inspired and fruitful in conversation. I
surprise myself with what I say. :) This form of chat is much better for me as well because I
16

17. can think things through with a little time.
I just now looked at it on your wall. Prior to this I was just reading it from my posting of it
which just packs it into one dense paragraph.
I look forward to the video and writings.
17 minutes ago · Like
Warren Aldrich Sadly my posting of your note elicited no response on my wall other than
a comment from my brother who loves to provoke me. :( I was looking forward to some
conversation around it.
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