1. 34CLIVE2014FEBRUARY#66
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In light of the recent controversy on the use of
the word “Allah” by non-Muslims, once again the
country is thrown into turmoil with various groups,
representing either faith, claiming rights to its use.
Here’s the thing, though… Growing up, I’ve never
encountered anything even remotely resembling
conflict when harmless jokes and comments with
spiritual connotations passed among us. Perhaps this
was because this sort of banter always took place in
an environment of complete open-mindedness.
Maybe it’s just how my friends and I are, or perhaps
living in an urban environment guaranteed that
everybody had access to a healthy dose of American
humour (which basically bastardises every single
form of culture out there). But honestly, why are we
so stressed out over the name of an entity that’s
supposed to be a symbol of compassion, love and
understanding?
TEXTSIMWIEBOONIMAGESASYRAFLEE/WWW.ASYRAFLEE.COMARTDIRECTIONCELESTEGOHVENUEFEEKA
GETTING TWO SIDES OF A STORY DROWNING IN CONTROVERSY
2. 35CLIVE2014FEBRUARY#66
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TEXTALIFOMARMAHFIX
IN
THE
NAME
OF
GODIn a quest to get a better understanding of things,
CLIVE speaks to two individuals from different faiths,
but pretty much on the same wavelength. Edry Faizal
works as a coordinator for www.roketkini.com, the
Democratic Action Party’s (DAP) Malay language
online portal. He was also previously with the Islamic
Renaissance Front - an intellectual movement and
think thank focused on youth empowerment and
promotion of intellectual Muslim discourse.
Joining him for this interfaith discussion is Peter
Toyat, a Catholic Christian actively involved in inter-
religious dialogues, a Master’s Degree holder in the
study of theology from the Franciscan University of
Steubenville, and a chemical engineer by profession.
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So what’s your personal
opinion on the use of “Allah”
by non-Muslims?
Edry: This is surely a political
agenda rather than a religious
issue the word ‘Allah’ has been
used before by non-Muslims.
Interesting enough, every time
we talk about this issue, it always
involves Christians and Muslims.
Others, such as Sikhs or Hindus,
are usually not discussed even
though they have been using the
word as well. It’s been practised
for a very long time, but why
is it that recently it’s become a
touchy issue? My only conclusion
is that it’s not about the religion.
I remember when I was in
several Muslim NGOs, we had
no problems identifying that
Christianity and Islam developed
from the same roots. Essentially
we believe in the same God,
and our religions stem from an
Abrahamic belief.
Peter: We Christians are also
in shock because the use of
this word predates this current
issue. It’s even used in other
Muslim countries without any
problems. Our first intention
(as Christians) is not to convert
anyone. Secondly, in fitting with
the guidelines, we stress that
the Bahasa Malaysia Bibles are
only to be distributed amongst
the Christian community. Even
if a good Muslim can’t tell that
it’s a Bible and picks it up, what
are the chances the individual
will flip to the specific verse that
uses that word? With that said,
any good Muslim who reads it
TEXTSIMWIEBOONIMAGEDURAATH
6. 39CLIVE2014FEBRUARY#66
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would know it’s a Bible. These
Bahasa Malaysia Bibles are used
mostly in Sarawak by Christians
who only speak in the national
language. Also, changing any
text in our scripture verse
changes a certain aspect of the
story being told as well. The
thing is these translated Bibles
are not adapted from an English-
language source, but rather from
Hebraic and Greek text. So, any
alteration of the scripture could
change an interpretation of
scripture.
Why is it that many Malaysian
Malays try too hard to be an
exemplary Muslim?
Edry: Probably because Malays
here try very hard to identify
themselves as Muslims and
sometimes leave themselves
wide open to outside influence.
From what I’ve observed, this
present turmoil has always
been related to power. You
always hear statements like:
“Oh, the Christians are using
the word Allah. They are trying
to confuse Muslims so they will
abandon their faith. This way
we will get weaker and lose our
political power”. This is rather
interesting because I believe as
some of these angry ‘Muslims’
don’t even pray five times a day,
or just as easily move on from
this serious topic to discussing
about which massage parlours
they should visit! And why have
Christians become such an easy
target? Well, all one needs to do
is to pick up a history book and
read about The Crusades…
Every religion preaches
understanding and
compassion. So why hasn’t
there been any give and take
in the quest to find a solution
to this misunderstanding?
Edry: Unfortunately we don’t
enjoy open dialogues or debates
in Malaysia, especially where
religion is concerned. I do get
that religion is a bit like your
privates! You don’t go around
showing if off to everyone. But
now no one ever talks about it,
or try to solve issues together
before it becomes a problem.
The culture of dialogue is simply
not prevalent here. Let’s not
even talk about tolerance. In
truth we are all pretty much still
segregated. This leads us to
believe that everything is okay
but when the smallest of issues
becomes manipulated, problems
arise like what we have today.
Only now we have people trying
to promote dialogue, but the
problem is already spreading
like wildfire, and we need a lot of
effort to control it.
Peter: Problems will come up
when one party tries to impose
their beliefs with authority onto
the other party. This is when
things get very complicated.
For example, you believe in
something, and I believe in
something else. But then I tell
you that you’re are wrong, and
I am convinced that you should
believe in my ‘truth’. There is
something very wrong about
this already, especially when one
party is being coerced into doing
so. The issue gets even more
complicated now because state
and religion has becomes mixed
with each other.
But how is it that people can
allow something that’s so
close to them like religion be
used like a tool?
Peter: Those in rural areas are
only exposed to one source of
news and to them, what they
read and see on TV is the ‘truth’.
This just makes them easy to
manipulate
Edry: There’s also this fear
among the Muslims here when
they encounter modernity. They
have some problem marrying
religion with modernity. Why
are Christians always being
targeted? Well, its’ simply
because there is a history
of conflict involving the two
religions. For example, just a
few weeks ago, the Al-Hijrah
Islamic channel on Astro held
a forum. And the subject of
the discussion was not allowing
history to repeat itself, when
Christian conquered Muslim
lands because we (Muslims)
were not united.
At this point, my editor Ben Liew
jumps in with a question. He is
a free-spirited individual who’s
a strong advocate of personal
freedoms and ideals, thus bases
his query on these.
Are you guys for an Islamic,
Christian or a secular state?
Which would you choose?
Edry: Well I choose a state
that doesn’t interference in the
matter of religion. Essentially
one that is secular in nature but
also with strong moral values. It
should be a state that doesn’t
reject anything but instead
discusses every matter with
zeal. It should also be a country
without an official religion.
Peter: I believe in the separation
of church and state. Looking
at history, in the fourth century,
when the Emperor Constantine
took over Milan, what happened
was that he made Christianity
the official religion but
problems soon came up state
authority and religion became
overlapping. People would use
the police powers for certain
things, and religious powers
for others. This is why in the
Catholic Church we do not
allow a priest to be involved in
any sort of politics whatsoever.
So it’s odd because I see the
same reflection happening to
this country and we have learned
that it can be really detrimental
to our unity. Who are we to
impose belief, when belief has to
be something uniquely chosen,
when you adhere to a truth that
“RELIGION
IS LIKE YOUR
PRIVATES,
YOU DON’T
GO AROUND
SHOWING
IF OFF TO
PEOPLE”– EDRY
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you uniquely chose yourself, it is
your choice.
Looking somewhat contented
with the answers, the ball rolls
back to my side of the court.
So why is it that in Malaysia,
Islamic religious guidelines
need to be backed by the
letter of the law?
Edry: To be honest, it doesn’t
need to be. This just makes the
religion look so weak because
it needs a particular law to back
it up. Only weak or disabled
people need crutches, right?
And in this present reality, the
law just doesn’t give Muslims
crutches, but also equips certain
irresponsible ones with parangs
and other weapons as well.
There is no logical rationale
behind needing a law to back
up any religion because at the
end of the day, religion is all
about practising your love to the
Almighty… now that shouldn’t be
forced or coerced on anybody in
any way, yes?
Peter: Laws are written because
it dictates through human
reasoning about what is good
and not. These laws are set to
protect the rights and dignity of
everyone. But laws that you have
may differ from the opinions
and ideals of another society,
and who has any right to set a
standard of perfection? More
importantly, who has the right to
set a law that is perfect? It’s very
difficult, but we Christians at
least believe that God is perfect
and His law is beyond reproach.
The Quran and the Bible
are both very old books, and
it takes a degree of proper
interpretation to get the
stories within them straight.
But different people have
different interpretations…
Edry: In Islam, we don’t have
any official bodies charged with
interpreting the Quran. The
interpretations are all surmised
by certain individuals. These
interpreters even have varying
conclusions to the meanings
amongst themselves. So
perhaps one should not look
at any one interpretation from
an authoritative point-of-view.
In history, when the Muslim
authorities wanted to quote an
interpretation of the Quran by
Imam Malik (a famous Muslim
scholar and cleric from medieval
Medina) in the passing of a law,
he refused saying that it may
very well differ and go against
other religions. From here
we can see that from Muslim
traditionally, interpretation from
the Quran was never part of
authority. This has only been a
very recent affair.
Peter: Christianity faces similar
issues as well, in view of the
different denominations of the
church. But from a Catholic
point-of-view, the Vatican
interprets scriptures from three
aspects. The first being the
scripture itself in light of the
issue at hand. Second, it is by
the way of the traditions of the
Catholic Church. Finally, we
will have a magisterium and
overarching body that oversees
the interpretation of scripture.
This will see if it fits in what
is good and what is true. You
can interpret scripture, but
sometimes people will do it a
little off-key. The church acts as a
community or body that guides
and helps each other to nurture
to a certain truth. For example,
one can look at the Bible and say
there’s a part of the holy book
that says you’re allowed to kill at
some time in the past; therefore
it probably means that you can
kill in the present too. But we, of
course, will say no! That notion
is wrong because it infringes on
present day human rights and
with what is true right now in the
current situation.
Speaking of the current
situation, how is it that
religion is still relevant in
today’s age of science and
technology?
Edry: Some people look at
religion as a guide to state and
physical means, while I look at
it as a guide to metaphysical
things. This is because that
is what religion is all about in
the first place. It is a source for
morality. Every religion teaches
goodness unless interpreted
wrongly. The most important
thing is for all of us to coexist
together, be it the atheist or a
religious person, and no matter
from which source of morality
one draws upon.
Peter: Man is created in the
image and likeness of God,
with that said, man’s source
begins from God and ends with
God. A person who wants to
be a good Christian follows in
what is true and what is good.
Therefore it only makes sense
that our life, religion and beliefs
are inseparable from ourselves
as a human. So what we do, what
we breathe, what we live and
how we act, it’s all inseparable.
Religion is us.
At this juncture, Ben comes to
life again with a question that’s
close to his punk ideals.
But in your book, it says that
all atheist and nonbelievers
will go hell right?
Edry: Well if you ask me, I
wouldn’t be too sure about
“EVEN IF A
GOOD MUSLIM
CAN’T TELL
THAT IT’S A
BIBLE AND
PICKS IT UP,
WHAT ARE THE
CHANCES THE
INDIVIDUAL
WILL FLIP TO
THE SPECIFIC
VERSE THAT
USES THAT
WORD.”– PETER
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that! The interesting thing is,
although the scripture says that
kafirs will go to hell, here’s a bit
of fact for you: kafir does not
mean infidel. It actually means
‘those who reject the truth’. With
that said, if you reject truth you
must first believe in the truth…
am I right? So the kafir term has
been terribly misused, especially
today. If you ask me, I’ll say that I
really wouldn’t know for sure as
that’s for God to decide. Even
the Prophet Muhammad said
one cannot judge who will go to
hell or heaven, it is God’s right.
And who ever tries to take away
His rights, well they’re the ones
going to hell!
Once again satisfied with the
answer, Ben leans back and
urges me to continue prying.
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Is there a correlation between
religious prejudice and racism?
Edry: I think its racial prejudice
that promotes religious prejudice.
For example, how the current
issue came about was when
some feared that the use of the
word ‘Allah’ by non-Muslims will
result in the Malays and Muslims
in general, losing their voice
and power. Eh, really? Suddenly
there’s a named race coming
into the picture (Laughs). That’s
why we have a problem when a
Malay person decides to leave
Islam. Even though you can
throw various verses about on
how there is no coercion in this
religion, the simple fact is that a
Malay person cannot leave Islam
because the constitution says so.
But why does the constitution
say so? Isn’t it as a means to
preserve ‘Malay power’?
So you’re in the opinion that a
Malay person has the right to
leave Islam?
Edry: Yes of course, as it is the
right given by the Supreme
Being where there is no coercion
in the matter of faith. Anyone
has the right to choose their faith.
At the end of it all, it’s between
that person and God. We cannot
judge, the only one that can
just judge is the most just, most
gracious and the most merciful.
So yes, I do think that.
Well in Malaysia, the fact that
a Malay person cannot leave
Islam is backed up by the
country’s law. Which part of
the Quran actually allows for
this then?
Edry: In this case, it’s back to
the interpretations of issue of
Murtad (apostasy). But these
interpretations are based on a
time when religion and power
were very much intertwined with
each other. Back then when one
leaves his or her religion, it is akin
to committing treason. But then
again, there were still people
who left their religion during that
period. Abdullah Ibn SadIbn Abi
Sarh was a scribe of the Quran
back in those days. He left Islam
and went back to Mecca. Here
he even started a rumour that
what’s written in the book was
different from what the Prophet
Muhammad had said. Yet, this
guy was left unharmed when
today he would surely be killed
for what he did.
Movingonthen,anythoughtson
diffusing the current situation?
Edry: The problem with our
community is that we don’t
have much trust among each
other, no matter what the idea of
unity actually preaches. There’s
always some sort of trust conflict
simmering in the background.
Why should we be united then?
Well, probably because we don’t
want May 13th to happen, again,
yes? Instead, why are Muslim told
to unite? Well, to avoid another
crusade! Another conflict! There
is no unification in terms of
values, only lately perhaps but
these are political values. We
need to find good, term value
and voices for moderation.
But the problem here is that
moderates do not voice out their
opinions and ideals. They know
something is wrong but they
don’t voice it out. This is what I’m
afraid of as silence and lack of
action will lead people to fall into
the trap of manipulation.
And how do you feel being a
Christian living in Malaysia in
the present, Peter? And what
do you think needs to
be done?
Peter: Ever since returning from
my studies, I’ve been involved
in inter-religious dialogues,
coincidentally with the Islamic
Renaissance Front. And part of
the solution that I see is that we
need to first understand each
other and have dialogues with an
open. We all have to learn about
each other. Establishing that
first round of conversation will
open up a lot of things, and also
remove blatant labeling like race,
religion and others. We have to
remove all these labels because
we are all one people: Malaysians.
And finally, what is your
biggest fear for this country?
Both answer with one word:
‘Disunity’. This certainly shows
that the two are certainly united
in their views. The two clearly
see that polarisation is already
happening at a drastic level
here in Malaysia. But we still
have time to change things.
Should we just wait around and
pray for the Almighty to save
us from ourselves? So, now the
ball in finally in your court and
what would you do? Would
you choose confrontation, or
would you instead sit down
and calmly think for a second.
Remember that religion, be it
Islam or Christianity, has always
been about love, tolerance and
understanding.
