Lawley unitec clean interviewing

presented by
James Lawley
Clean Interviewing:
Keeping your stuff out and
gathering their stuff in
1
assisted by Penny Tompkins and Amanda Moore

James Lawley, UNITEC, 2017
Overview
Background
Why we need ‘clean’ research
‘Clean’ interviewing
Cleanness-rating protocol
Practice activities
2

James Lawley, UNITEC, 2017 3
A gentle genie has escaped from the lamp.
His name is David Grove and his magic is ‘clean language’.
Ernest L. Rossi

David Grove
(1952 - 2008)
“Clean Language is simple because
people are complex enough.”
First book about
Clean Language 1989.

Methodology Corner
Eliciting Metaphor through Clean
Language: An Innovation in
Qualitative Research
Paul Tosey, James Lawley1
and Rupert Meese2
Surrey Business School, University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK, 1
The Developing Company,
PO Box 349, Lisburn BT28 1WZ, UK, and 2
Clean Change Company Ltd, 18 Byfield Road, Isleworth,
Middlesex TW7 7AF, UK
Corresponding author email: P.Tosey@surrey.ac.uk
This paper shows how an innovative method of questioning called Clean Language can
enhance the authenticity and rigour of interview-based qualitative research. We investi-
gate the specific potential of Clean Language as a method for eliciting naturally occur-
ring metaphors in order to provide in-depth understanding of a person’s symbolic world;
despite substantial interest in metaphors in the field of organizational and management
research there is a lack of explicit, systematic methods for eliciting naturally occurring
metaphors. We also demonstrate how Clean Language can improve qualitative research
more widely by addressing the propensity for researchers inadvertently to introduce
extraneous metaphors into an interviewee’s account at both data collection and inter-
pretation stages. Data are presented from a collaborative academic–practitioner project
in which Clean Language was used as a method of interviewing to elicit the metaphors of
six mid-career managers, relating to the way they experienced work–life balance. The
first contribution of this paper is to demonstrate the potential of Clean Language for
eliciting naturally occurring metaphors in order to provide in-depth understanding of a
person’s symbolic world. The second contribution is to show how Clean Language can
enhance the rigour and authenticity of interview-based qualitative research more widely.
Introduction
There has been considerable interest in metaphor
in the organization and management literature
(e.g. Cassell and Lee, 2012; Cornelissen, 2006;
Cornelissen and Kafouros, 2008; Cornelissen
et al., 2008; Grant and Oswick, 1996;
Hatch and Yanow, 2008; Marshak, 1993;
Morgan, 1986; Oswick and Jones, 2006; Oswick
and Montgomery, 1999; Oswick, Keenoy and
Grant, 2002). However, according to Cassell and
Lee (2012, p. 248), ‘most research focuses on the
deductive application of metaphors, rather than
on inductive explorations of metaphorical
language-in-use’. Of those that do pursue induc-
tive explorations, Cassell and Lee (2012, p. 254)
distinguish between those that use ‘already pro-
duced language’ and those that purposefully elicit
metaphors. The former type often emphasizes the
function of metaphor as a rhetorical device
(Amernic, Craig and Tourish, 2007; Pablo and
Hardy, 2009; Tourish and Hargie, 2012), and
We wish to acknowledge Wendy Sullivan and Margaret
Meyer (Clean Change Company) who were members of
the project team that collaborated on the work–life
balance study and co-authored the project report. Sarah
Nixon (Liverpool John Moores University) was academic
advisor to the project. The project was made possible by
pump-priming funding from the Faculty of Management
and Law, University of Surrey, and was a partnership
with the Clean Change Company (http://www
.cleanchange.co.uk/cleanlanguage/). A previous version
of this paper was awarded the Alan Moon prize for best
paper presented at the 12th International HRD Confer-
ence, University of Gloucestershire, 25–27 May 2011.
bs_bs_banner
British Journal of Management, Vol. ••, ••–•• (2014)
DOI: 10.1111/1467-8551.12042
© 2014 British Academy of Management. Published by John Wiley & Sons Ltd, 9600 Garsington Road, Oxford OX4
2DQ, UK and 350 Main Street, Malden, MA, 02148, USA.
2014
first article about
Clean Language
as a research methodology
in
a 4* peer-reviewed journal.

Why we need
a ‘clean’ approach to research
6

The need for a clean approach - 1
7
Lack of information about what happens in research
interviews:
e.g.
“A one-hour semi-structured interview was conducted.”
Executive coaching can enhance transformational leadership. Tom Cerni, Guy J. Curtis & Susan H. Colmar. International Coaching
Psychology Review. Vol. 5 No. 1 March 2010
“One-to-one interviews took place … A range of open questions were
used to facilitate discussion around key areas.”
Developmental coaching: Business benefit – fact or fad?. Elouise Leonard-Cross. International Coaching Psychology Review. Vol. 5
No. 1 March 2010

8
Potential Interviewee bias
Consistency effect
- tendency to answer in ways that are consistent with the questions
Acquiescence bias
- tendency not to challenge an assumption implicit in a question
Friendliness effect
- tendency to answer how an interviewee thinks the researcher wants
them to answer.
Philip Podsakoff and others (2003).

9
Potential Interviewer bias
Priming
- The exposure to a stimulus inﬂuences a later response. “Unconscious
priming effects can affect word choice long after the words have been
consciously forgotten” (Tulving et al., 1982).
Leading through:
• Metaphor
• Presupposition / Framing

10
Metaphor
1. A single metaphor can biased how people reason.
2. Metaphors systematically influence how people propose solving
problems.
3. No one cites metaphor as an influencing factor when asked
how they arrived at their conclusion.
Thibodeau PH, Boroditsky L (2011) Metaphors We Think With: The Role of Metaphor in Reasoning. Freely available at:
www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016782

What is a metaphor?
“The essence of metaphor is understanding and
experiencing one kind of thing in terms of another.”
Lakoff and Johnson (1981)
11

How often do we use metaphor?
Studies show we often use
up to 6 metaphors a minute
or 1 metaphor in every 25 words.
Tosey, P., Sullivan, W. and Meyer, M. (2013) `Clean Sources: Six Metaphors a Minute?’, University of Surrey
12

Caitlin Walker & James Lawley, BPS SGCP Conference, 2015
Why are metaphors important?
13
“About how fast were the cars going when they [……]
into each other?”
Metaphor Mean speed estimate
Smashed 41 mph
Collided 39
Bumped 38
Hit 34
Contacted 32
The difference of 9 mph is 27% higher.
(Loftus & Palmer, 1975)

14
Lack of high-quality examples
344 pages 
Recommends: “in-depth”
interviews …
… yet, there is only 1 page of
interview transcript.

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Presupposition
Interviewer: Tell me a little bit about what you do.
DC: I’m an advisor here. We get them straight off the street. I sit
down with them and make out an educational plan. I like it
when they know what’s expected of them.
Interviewer: How many students do you have?
DC: About 100.
Interviewer: 100! Are you able to have a relationship with so many?
Designing Qualitative Research, Catherine Marshall and Gretchen Rossman, 2010. 6th edition Figure 4.2 p. 103

The need for a clean’ approach - 7
16
Cumulative ‘leading’ effect of questions:
Interviewer: Let me ask you this question. How has this memory affected
your life? What kind of impact has it had on your life?
Interviewee: My dad’s girlfriend’s apartment or my grandmother? Both?
Interviewer: The first memory. How has this impacted, what impact has it
had on your life?
Interviewee: … it definitely has a very large impact. …
Magnus Englander .The Interview: Data Collection in Descriptive Phenomenological Human Scientific Research. Journal of
Phenomenological Psychology 43 (2012) 13–35

Statement from Interviewee Coded by Interviewer
Sometimes I will be sat watching trash TV and
thinking I should be doing something rather
than watching this rubbish.
Wasting time/inactive
I read a lot. Doing
But sometimes I am too tired and I just want to
veg out.
Tired/depressed
But it’s been good to move out of mum and
dad’s.
Independence
It’s not healthy to rely on them as they won’t
last forever.
Unhealthy to be
dependent.
Coding of an interview: http://www.slideshare.net/aidenyeh/qualitative-research-lectureshortened p. 49
The need for a clean’ approach - 8
(data analysis)

(presentation of ﬁndings)
Berger asks “whether she wishes she were in a different place in her life”
Kathleen: No, I think this is the journey. And I could stay in this [uncertain
space], I think, forever.... I don’t know what to say, it just feels like it
will emerge. But no, where I am right now feels very much like – it
doesn’t feel like a hiatus. It feels like it is the journey and that work
will emerge from this place.
Berger comments: It is clear that Kathleen is on the edge of her knowing.
‘edge’ (of knowing) is mentioned 104 times in Berger’s article; not once does this
metaphor appear in the interviewee data cited in the article.
Berger, J. G. 2004, "Dancing on the Threshold of Meaning: Recognising and Understanding the Growing Edge", Journal of Transformative Education, vol. 2, no.
4, pp. 336-351.
18

Clean approach applied to the
5 stages of a research project
19
Research Project Stage Application of a Clean Approach
Design Formulation of research questions,
protocols and methodology
Data Collection Clean interviewing
Metaphor elicitation (Symbolic Modelling)
Analysis - coding -
model/theory construction
Stay close to text
Role of metaphor
Testing /
Validation
Clean Interview Validation Protocol
Cleanness Ratings
Presentation of results Clarity of source of data

PhD research using Clean Interviewing
❖ Metaphors of leadership
❖ Creative arts and media
❖ Intuition & premonitions
❖ Attitude of workers aged 65+
❖ Pastoral counselling
❖ Metaphors we teach by
❖ Metaphor in counselling and qualitative research interviews
❖ Improving teaching & learning in Higher Education
❖ Identity alignment in legal services ﬁrms
20

Other research using Clean Interviewing
❖ Work-Life Balance of managers
❖ Evaluating coaching
❖ Community & large organisation information capture
❖ Change management - before & after
❖ Metaphors of EFL teachers' roles
❖ Ethnomethodological study of Symbolic Modelling
❖ Metaphor in creative cognition
❖ Flood protection: a Dutch case study
❖ Use of symbolism in counselling
❖ Legacy of war: Experiences
21

The Leading-to-Clean Continuum
22
More content introduced
More presupposed
More restrictive syntax
Less content introduced
Less presupposed
Less restrictive syntax
Mildly/
Potentially
leading
Strongly
leading
Contextually
clean
Classically
clean
J Lawley, Protocol for Validating ‘Cleanness’ of an Interview, 8 Oct 2014

Classically Clean
A question from the Clean Language set (or a close derivative)
that includes the interviewee’s words without the introduction
of interviewer metaphors, concepts, opinions or
presuppositions.
It also includes statements that only reﬂect back the
interviewee’s words.
e.g.
And is there anything else about that ‘inspiring the team
to achieve the goals’?
23

12 commonly used Clean Questions - by function
24
Relate over Time
And then what happens?
And what happens next?
Relate over Time
And what happens
just before [event]?
And where does [ ]
come from?
Relate across Space
And when/as [X], what happens to [Y]?
And is there a relationship between [X] and [Y]?
And is [X] the same or different as [Y]?
Identify
And how do you know [ ]?
And that's [ ] like what?
Develop Form
And what kind of [ ] is that [ ]?
And is there anything else about [ ]?
And where/whereabouts is [ ]?
Tosey, P., Lawley, J. and Meese, R.
(2014) Eliciting Metaphor through
Clean Language: an Innovation in
Qualitative Research, British Journal
of Management 25(3), 629-646.

Contextually Clean
A question or statement that only introduces ‘neutral’ words
based on the context within which the interview is conducted,
or the inherent logic in the interviewee’s information.
e.g. (1) -
And what was the effect of that afterwards? (evaluative
interview)
e.g. (2)
So what is leadership? (research topic)
25

Mildly/Potentially Leading
A question or statement that introduces words not used by
the interviewee, however these words are not strongly
metaphorical or presuppositional and have no discernible
affect on the interviewee’s answers.
e.g.
Interviewer: If you were to use a picture to describe that
‘process of escalation’, that’s like what?
Interviewee: Hard to say as a picture. Are you thinking as a
metaphor? I can’t think of a metaphor but …
[gives a metaphor].
26

Strongly Leading
A question or statement that introduces words, frames or
opinions (especially via metaphors and presuppositions) that
cast doubt on the authorship of interviewee answers.
e.g. (1)
Interviewee: I don’t know if this is managing or leading.
Interviewer: And maybe it doesn’t matter whether it’s
‘managing or leading’.
e.g. (2)
Interviewer: What is the image you carry around that drives
your actions today?
27

Activity: Rank questions from most Clean (1) to most Leading (10)
28
RANK Ref QUESTIONS
a Please can you describe what you consider is a good coaching relationship?
b How important do you think the coaching relationship is?
c How important is the coach-client relationship to outcome?
d Is there a bond between the coach and client?
e What is the coaching relationship like at the beginning of coaching?
f Does the context of the coaching have any relation to the coach-client relationship?
If so, how?
g How does the client influence the coach-client relationship?
h How does the coach influence the coach-client relationship?
i How does the coach maintain the coaching relationship?
j How does the coach handle a rupture in the coaching relationship?

Activity: Rate Interview A
29
Strongly
Leading
Mildly
Leading
Contextual
Clean
Classically
Clean
Q1 I just want to get you talking about what the heart attack meant to
you and if it’s changed your life. But just to get you started, tell me
a bit about how it happened.
A I remember it though it were yesterday. I was one of them people
who never thought it could happen to them. I'm a six-footer,
twelve and a half stone. I was in an active job, all day every day. It
was a shock.
Q2 Did it make you feel frightened, or worried, or....?
A: At first, but then, I'd say no I just, you know, plod on, you know,
carry on. I just don't know why it happened really.
Q3 Was it hard to go back to work then?
A: Yes. I used to be union rep, I've given that up. I used to be on the
PTA Committee, I've given that up. In fact, my work was divided
amongst 6 people while I was off. So I think that sort of told them
just how much of a load I'd been carrying.
Q4 Do you think it's changed your outlook about the future?
A: Yes, I’ve got a bit more, I won't say totally, a bit more of the sort
of approach to life: well life could end tomorrow so make the most
of it now. And I'm trying to do that - but breaking the habits of a
lifetime is a bit difficult.
Q5 So your outlook is different?

Activity: Rate Interview B
30
Strongly
Leading
Mildly
Leading
Contextual
Clean
Classically
Clean
Q1 So how did that session go?
B: It went really well. It was a real journey. I saw into some of the
patterns of thinking that had been holding me back really clearly
and I felt like I dug deeper into my understanding of the topic and
of my own reaction, so it was positive for me.
Q2 So it was a journey, and you saw into your patterns that had been
holding you back, and you delved deeper, and that was positive for
you. So anything else about how the session went?
B: One of the things that I enjoyed about it was that we got into a
good rhythm and a good flow. We found a point of focus and used
that to move forward to create some specific goals for the session
and then I think by the end of them we felt we’d met those goals.
Q3 So by the end of the session you felt that you’d met the goals.
Okay and how would you assess the session?
B: Do you mean give it a judgement or what I use to create the
judgement?
Q4 Both, yes we’ll take both.
B: Okay, so the overall assessment, it was really productive and
valuable. And was I able to be present for it and be vulnerable in
the space, it’s a pretty vulnerable space a lot of the time.
Q5 You were able to be present and vulnerable in that space. And when
it was really productive, how do you know how productive it was?

Activity: Clean Interviewing
Use only ‘classically clean’ questions to investigate
the research topic:
Identify what the interviewee considers a good
work-life relationship.
31

Activity: Clean Interviewing
Use only ‘classically clean’ and ‘contextually clean’
questions to investigate the research topic:
The role of research in the interviewee’s career.
32

Clean Interviewing Publications
Grove, D. J. & Panzer, B. I. (1989). Resolving Traumatic Memories: Metaphors and symbols in psychotherapy. Irvington.
Lawley, J (forthcoming 2017). Clean Language Interviewing: Making qualitative research interviews verifiable. Chapter 3 in
Becoming a teacher: The dance between tacit and explicit knowledge. Editors, Švec, V., Nehyba, J. & Svojanovský, P. MUNI
press: Masaryk University.
Lawley, J & Linder-Pelz, S (2016) Evidence of competency: exploring coach, coachee and expert evaluations of coaching.
Coaching: An International Journal of Theory, Research and Practice. 9(2):110-128.
Linder-Pelz, S & Lawley, J (2015) Using Clean Language to explore the subjectivity of coachees’ experience and outcomes.
International Coaching Psychology Review, Sep 10(2):161-174.
Rain, T., Lawley, J & Henwood, S (2016) From coaching and therapy to research interviewing: Reflections and
recommendations from practice, Acuity, 5 14-28.
Tosey, P (2015). And what kind of question is that? Thinking about the function of questions in qualitative interviewing.
Chapter 14 in Handbook of Research Methods on Human Resource Development. Editors, Saunders, M. N. K. & Tosey, P.,
Tosey, P., Lawley, J. & Meese, R. (2014), Eliciting Metaphor through Clean Language: An Innovation in Qualitative Research.
British Journal of Management, 25:629–646.
Van Helsdingen, A. & Lawley, J. (2012). Modelling Shared Reality: Avoiding Unintended Influence in Qualitative Research,
Kwalon: Journal of the Netherlands Association for Qualitative Research, 3:1-7.
For other research applications of Clean Interviewing see:
cleanlanguage.co.uk/articles/articles/264/1/Citations-and-Research/
33

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