The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 073 Frank Niles

THE ENTREPRENEUR’S RADIO SHOW
Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs that Grow Your Business
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EPISODE #73: FRANK NILES
On this episode, Travis speaks with behavioral scientist, executive coach, trusted speaker, and
adventure athlete Dr. Frank Niles. A behavioral scientist by training, Frank has established himself in
the business world, giving lectures and expert advice on various companies and business leaders. He
is also the co-founder of the Scholar Executive Group, which aims to help companies and establish
goals and objectives to improve their system in order to achieve their company's full potential.
Frank and Travis pointed out key points on how to achieve success in many different levels as well as
understanding the different levels of relationships and connections that can greatly help your business.
Frank discussed the 3 basic psychological needs of the employees that business owners should
nurture and cultivate in their business environment. They also discussed about fear and how
entrepreneurs should view and react to it when it comes to obstacles in business as well as in their
lives. These are just some of the things Dr. Niles and Travis talks about that would definitely benefit
entrepreneurs no matter what their business is.
Frank Niles – Increasing your potential
to grow your success
Travis: Hey, it's Travis Lane Jenkins, welcome to episode number 73 of the Entrepreneur's Radio
Show, conversations with self-made millionaires and high level entrepreneurs that will grow your
business. This is a production of Rock Star Entrepreneur Network.
As always I'm super excited because of our guest today, mostly because this guy is not only brilliant,
he's a great person. So I want to get down to business and just tell you about the brilliant Dr. Frank
Niles. He is an authority on social psychology of human performance which I personally find
fascinating. He is a behavioral scientist, adventure athlete and peak performance strategist. Today
we're going to talk about what prevents many people from achieving the success that they could and
should have on many levels. We'll also talk about understanding the different levels of connections and
relationships and how to leverage them. And also a whole host of other important things that we'll be
geared towards helping you with taking your business or your mindset to that next level.
Now before we get started I want to remind you that you can download the podcast in iTunes and take
these interviews with you on the go. The easiest way to do that is go to
RockstarEntrepreneurNetwork.com and click on the iTunes button and it will take you directly to the
podcast in iTunes where you can subscribe to the show. I don't know about you but if you ever try to

search in iTunes, for some reason the search tool is very, I don't know, it just doesn't work consistently
for me. Maybe I'm a terrible speller, who knows. But click on the link, it'll take you straight there.
Now this will make it easy for you to listen to the podcast on the go while you're doing other things. If
you're anything like me, like to do it while you're working out, driving, jogging, whatever the case may
be.
Also, one other thing, be sure and stay with us until the very of the show if you can because I've got a
contest that I'm super excited about that I want to tell you about. As a matter of fact I'll tell you a little bit
right now. It's a free business breakthrough program that is centered around teaching you the formula
that I've used to build several multi-million dollar businesses. Now we've created a sweepstakes where
you'll have a chance to win $73,000 in cash and prizes, and a chance to win a Lamborghini, my
personal Lamborghini. So without further ado, welcome to the show Dr. Frank.
Frank: Well thank you, it is a pleasure to be here and I am super psyched to talk with you and your
audience.
Travis: Man, I am super excited to hang out with you also, I'm sorry Sandra couldn't join us today,
she's travelling. So it's just going to be me and you bottling through that, are you okay with that?
Frank: I am perfectly okay with that.
Travis: Cool. Hey, question for you, would you mind giving us kind of the background of where you got
to where you are today so that we know a little bit about you?
Frank: Yeah, and you know that story have to go all the way back to 4th grade because like I
mentioned to you off the air, we really are the sum of our experiences. And that forms us in ways that
we many not actually know until later on. And I was actually kicked out of elementary school, private
school in 4th grade. It was something about me asking a lot of questions and just being a generally
inquisitive student, and sometimes not doing my homework. Anyways, so the teacher said, and I still
remember this, this is like 4 decades later. And I still remember it, they said, "You know what, you're
just not smart enough to really succeed in the academic world. So you really need to go to another
school." At least that's what they told my folks. So I started out at the very beginning just being told that
I couldn't do things by those who are teaching me. So probably not the best way to motivate students.
But my folks and friends and everything else were very, very motivational.
So I grew up in an outdoor family and from an early age it was really encouraged to engage in
discovery and really following kind of what really energizes me. And growing up in Southern California, I
had the opportunity to hike in the mountains and climb, and my whole family are climbers as well. So
they introduced me to that. And so at a young age I kind of discovered really what motivated me. And

that was really discovery, adventure, and later on helping other people. And so rather than kind of doing
the normal thing high school kids do to go off to college, I decided I wanted to become a paramedic in
Los Angeles County. And so anyways, so I ended up going off to paramedics’ school and ended up
becoming one of the youngest paramedics in Los Angeles County history. It's amazing what you can do
when you have no idea what's going to take to actually accomplish. Just kind of going through there in
that way.
Travis: Right, ignorance is bliss at times, right.
Frank: Yeah, it is. So anyways, I did that for a while, decided, "Hey, I don't want to do this for my whole
life, I want to become a doctor. Do something, go to college." And so I went to college and it's at that
point that I discovered that I really was energized by studying people and by observing people and
figuring out what makes us tick. So I graduated and ended up going to graduate school, and 8 years
later, 7 years later got a PhD in political science, particularly kind of political communications
psychology. And so, went on to become a professor and a full professor. So those of you who are in the
academic world, you know what that means. Spending lots of solitary hours in the office writing articles
that nobody will read.
Travis: Right.
Frank: And becoming an expert in your own world and-- So I was quite successful in that world. But
along the way people started inviting me to come speak to groups and informally coach them because
it just seemed that I had some sort of a knack for connecting kind of the arcane to the everyday world.
And so I like to refer to myself as kind of a reluctant entrepreneur, reluctant coach, reluctant speaker
because that was by no means intentional on my part, it was more of folks going, "Man, you kind of
have something to say, why don't you come and kind of say it to us." And so that was about 7 or so
years ago, and so in that in-between time, I said, "You know what, maybe there's something there."
And so kind of being viewed as an expert in things, you get lots of speaking invitations and everything.
And at the end of the year, you know, I kind of look back and took account of what I had done that year,
and this is about 6 or so years ago. And you're like, "Holy cow, I'm like speaking to a lot of groups,
making some money and there's folks contacting me for personal coaching. So why don't we just kind
of see what happens and take it to the next level." At the same time not wanting to leave my academic
job because that is one of the best jobs in my opinion you can have, because you're tapped in to
enormous amount of intellectual capital, really smart people that help you grow. And so, I kind of
formed a company and did a little bit of marketing, not very much, mostly just word of mouth.
Somebody will hear me speak at a human resource conference or something, and then they invite me
to come out. And it just kind of grows like that.
Travis: Right.

Frank: And then I decided a want a larger platform so started writing for Huffington Post and all the
rest,
Travis: Hey, let me ask you, what business or where were you working at the time whenever you were
thinking about leaving your job?
Frank: Sure, John Brown University.
Travis: Okay.
Frank: Which is a liberal arts college in Arkansas.
Travis: Okay.
Frank: Yeah, and I like to refer to universities, or academic environments, or whatever environment
that people find themselves in that is really rich and nourishing--
Travis: Right.
Frank: As both a launch pad and a docking station. So it launches you but it's also a place, you can
kind of plug-in and get refreshed. And so I found that really, really valuable. And so had been doing that
but then I have a partner or a colleague that we joke and refer to him as kind of the therapist to
executive CEO's. And we were having lunch and we just kind of sat down together and he said, "You
know what, there's not really a model out there of both, any company that we know that does both
coaching and therapy." And many times my clients as a coach, they could probably use some therapy,
that's outside, I'm not a therapist I'm a social scientist. And at the same time he's a therapist, doesn't
really do a lot of kind of strategy coaching and things like that. And so we decided, "Hey, why don't we
go try to drum up some investment dollars and let's start a company." And so last year we started
Scholar Executive Group with investment backing which I've done a number of these interviews and
they'd always seem so perplexed people like, "What, you guys got money and you don't make widgets."
We're not a hi-tech company but we were able to connect with investors who believe in what we do. So
scholar executive group is kind of the executive coaching component of what I do and I have a partner
with that. And then I've come of split-off, and in fact you're catching us at a really, just exciting time
because we're in that transition period where Nile's performance group, that's kind of my speaking,
personal coaching, kind of personal development self-help. I'm splitting that off and we're actually
launching a new website in a couple of weeks. So that's going to be that business and then the
executive coaching and executive education, that's the Scholar Executive Group. So that's kind of how
I've got to where we are. So it's an exciting time.
Travis: Yeah, well let me-- Congratulations on that.

Frank: Oh thank you.
Travis: Let me back up a little bit. So let's make sure, let's get crystal clear on what a social scientist is.
Frank: Yeah, you bet. Social scientist study the inner section of, and then, I'll drop the academic lingo
here. But we study the inner section of humans and organizations. And so for instance. We study what
motivates people to behave in the way in which they do that is both intrinsic to themselves but also
shaped by their context. So if you started a company, so you know, you have employees. Sometimes
they're not performing up to the level that you have set a certain benchmark or set of expectations. As a
boss, we're often inclined to say, "Hey, shape up or ship out," or something like this. What we're able to
do is kind of bring the perspective that human behavior is multiply determined. It's shaped not only by
what's going on in the end visual but what's also going on in the environment. So if we can, as leaders,
speaking of the leaders, which I mostly do, is it's only in the environment that we can control. And so if
we can kind of shape an environment that's nurturing and high performance and all the rest, then we
can certainly create the seeds for maximizing employee behavior. So I guess, to answer your question
directly, is I come at it from that angle that our performance is not simply a function of the choices we
make but also the environment within which we find ourselves. So that comes into culture building if
you're a leader and you're incentivizing, and figure out how to manage transitions and all the rest.
Travis: Right. So for me, what I want to do is correlate it into because you and I were talking and I'm
fascinated with behavioral science and things like that. I've always, I love to people watch.
Frank: Yeah.
Travis: I like to see studies of how people will behave under certain situations. And so, for me I think
this is the topic that a lot of people don't realize is how important it is, and their personal success and
the success of their business--
Frank: Yeah.
Travis: And so what I'm going to do is I'm going try to come at it from a different angle. And for me, one
of the things that I see in an environment where you have a team is the take it or leave it approach of
do your job or hit the road like you said. That works with a very limited number of people that have to
have the job.
Frank: Right.
Travis: Whereas if you really want to get the most out of the team you got to build a team environment
and then incentivize the people as a group. Do you agree with that?

Frank: Oh, a 100% and let me press it by saying that in this day and age, the thing that you don't want
to do is lose your highest performers. Those take it or leave it folks, those are sort of folks that are just
in the job because they need a job. So I don't really speak to those kinds of folks. What we're kind of
talking about is those employees that are on their way up that are adding a great deal of value for your
organization that are really engaged in super smart, and-- You know what those employees look like.
Travis: Right.
Frank: Yeah, and so absolutely, you're spot on. And I think it comes, creating that culture of
performance and authenticity, and whatever word you want to use really comes from a recognition of
kind of simple three things, kind of a combination of three things. Every human being, we have three
basic psychological needs. We have a need for autonomy and that is kind of, engaging in actions that
are not forced on us. We have a need, being really good at something that matters. And then the last
one is connections, connections so that we can feed into and be fed into by other people. And so, often
times when you start seeing a team that is evidencing some dysfunction or what not. One of the first
places I start is by asking the team leaders or the leaders, you know, "Are your folks feeling controlled,
are they being manipulated, do they feel that way?" You can get that through a 360, or through
surveys, or whatever. Do they really feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves and
each day do they have the opportunity to grow as a person. We're humans, we're meant to grow, and
when we don't feel like we're growing, then we take that anxiety and frustration out on often time’s
people around us. Or we engage in abusive behaviors to ourselves even.
Travis: Or customers.
Frank: And then lastly-- Or our customers, yes, customers, exactly. And then lastly, is the team-- We're
not necessarily talking about folks who are going to hang out around the bar and have drinks, b2ut
hopefully we do. But do they view themselves as a team, do they view themselves as contributing to
something, again, bigger than their individual parts, but the sum, they're part of something really
extraordinary. And so, the first place to start, you're exactly right, and kind of diagnosing what's going
on in a team environment is figuring out, are we creating an environment where people can live up to
their full potential, do something really meaningful, become great at it, and then connect with other
people in the pursuit of that goal.
Travis: Okay. And I completely agree with you on that. One observation just from owning multiple
businesses is top level performers normally can produce two to three to four, even 5-600% more than a
low-level performer. I think a lot of entrepreneurs don't realize the collateral damage that the lower level
people can have if you don't deal with that issue.
Frank: Yes.

Travis: And so, number one, attracting a team of highly effective people and then motivating and
driving them. The autonomy, explain to me how-- I'm big on systems in the business, right.
Frank: Yup.
Travis: And I think most successful, or all successful-- Oops, we lost some audio there.
Frank: Yeah, I lost some audio.
Travis: Can you hear me?
Frank: Yeah, I can hear you.
Travis: Okay. The all-successful businesses in my opinion have standard operating procedures, right.
Frank: Yes, that's right.
Travis: They have systems for the way that they do things. And so, if you have standard operating
procedures and protocols, how can a team have autonomy?
Frank: Yeah, great question. It's autonomy within parameters. And so, when we're talking about
autonomy we're mostly talking about control of creativity and workflow, now with caveats. Obviously,
with the role, I'm thinking about the role out of the iPhone you know. Those designers have a lot of
creative autonomy, and at the same time they're held to a very high standard. And there's some really
important time crunch. And so autonomy, especially for the high performers does come down to the
ability to innovate within the area that they're responsible. I had a client the other day and it's funny to
come out of his mouth because he's a very successful, high-level leader. He talked about his board
being Debbie Downers, and I'm like, "Debbie? Oh yeah, I heard that when I was a kid." And so I think
that's the contrast, is being open as a leader to new ideas and fostering that sense of ownership over
the process. That's really what it's about is ownership over the process, as well as over to some extent
a product, and not having leaders constantly micromanaging. So systems, policies, procedures, they
have to be in place. But within that there need to be flexibility for, especially those at the top who are
producing those high levels of value, to have a sense of ownership of the product that they're
producing.
Travis: And I agree with you, actually, that's one of the indicators that I use as a star performer is
someone that they've gotten in and they've learned the system and they say, "You know Travis when
we do XYZ, I was wondering is Z necessary? Can we make this change?"
Frank: Oh my gosh, you just want to hug those people.

Travis: Yeah, right. And now those people also can be working on something and maybe wrap up time
is 5 o'clock, they'll leave at 5:05, 5:10, whenever they're done.
Frank: That's right.
Travis: Where I've had other staff members that somehow manage everyday to clock out exactly at 5
o'clock on the nose. And so, I know my work is never that neat and finished as that precise so to me it
speaks to the commitment from their side when I see these things. But what I hear you talking about is
creating an environment and fostering an environment that causes this rather than happening on its
own in the wild, right.
Frank: Yeah, no, that's right. You're exactly correct. You're always going to have those folks that are
the 5 o'clock check-out people. And if you want to go the Walsh direction and cut the bottom 10%, I do
not advocate that, but then that's what you can do with those folks. But the reality is, especially those at
lower levels of the organization you'll often see that because they're not that intrinsically motivated yet.
But it doesn't have to be that way. I spoke in an event last night and I cannot tell you how motivated the
staff-- I mean I had to hang around afterwards and just talk with them. The catering staff, they were so
motivated. And so, hopefully I don't annoy people but I always ask them, what is it that gets you
psyched about your job. And this young lady for 10 minutes said, "Man, we make you guys look good,
we love doing what we do," and you could just see that enthusiasm in coming out of her. And so I
asked, "So what is it about the job?" And she said, "You know what it is, when we're in here in this
room setting up it's like this is our show." And that's autonomy. If she didn't set-up the cookies or
whatever is out there, she'd be probably let go. But she wasn't being motivated by that, she was being
motivated by, the cookies come out of the oven, and the coffee and all the rest, and then it's her show.
And she makes it happen, and she stayed after, I was inspired by her and I was the one supposed to
be there inspiring people.
Travis: Yeah, and I love stuff like that. When I think of autonomy I automatically think of just freedom
but I hear you're saying they're just taking it--
Frank: Yeah, but it's not.
Travis: They're taking it that extra mile, they're being creative, and they’re adding their own personal
element to their own passion to what they’re doing.
Frank: Yeah. And so for your listeners, when I use the word autonomy, unfortunately I'm using it in a
very precise psychological way. It's not freedom abandon or anything like that, it is simply the feeling
that we are doing something without being micromanaged by people above us or beside us.
Travis: Right.

Frank: So it's not about freedom and just doing whatever the heck you want, it's about just that-- And
you know it in your own life and I do too. There's those times where we feel like. "Man, we're doing
something but we don't want to be doing it." That's a terrible feeling. Sometimes we have to just buck
up and do it, but if that becomes a lifelong pattern, we're going to live in misery and we're not going to
be able to do very well.
Travis: Yeah, I completely agree. So let's go down competence, walk me down that path now.
Frank: Yeah, competence. So, you started what was the first very successful company, construction?
Travis: Oh yeah, home improvement company.
Frank: Home improvement. Kind of what got you psyched each day?
Travis: I turn things into a game.
Frank: Okay.
Travis: We always took pride in being the absolute best at what we did, and so everything that we did,
me and the people that worked with me because I initially worked out on the field, is we made a game
who could provide the best finished product the fastest. And so we learned how to have fun while we
were excelling.
Frank: Okay, you nailed it right on the head, there's two things. It's not about perfection, it's just the
relentless pursuit of becoming better, that's what competence is. It's that relentless pursuit every single
day of striving to become better and the best even though the best is that elusive thing out there that
you're never going to get to. And that's what's so cool. Could you imagine if we could become the best
then what? So it's that relentless pursuit of becoming better and then getting feedback to help us get
better. So when you're talking about becoming the best you turn it into a game. Whether you knew it or
not, you're receiving ongoing feedback about how well you're doing, whether it's a customer saying,
"Hey, this worked or didn't work." Or the feedback is somebody won the game and you didn't win the
game. So it's really those two things, that sense of I'm in a position where I'm getting better each day at
what I do, and I'm receiving very quick feedback to let me know that this I'm either hitting the mark or
I'm not hitting the mark. So competence really has those two components to it, is everyday getting
better, and better, and better. But also having the feedback to know where you're kind of maybe
following a little bit short and then what you're doing really well. Because one of the things that we know
from studies of really successful, high-performing people is they really do covet feedback. And they're
just dedicated, actually obsessive at overcoming weaknesses that are holding them back. It's often real
popular these days to talk about strengths, which is important. You want to get the right gym college,
you want to get the right people and the right seats on the bus. But to get from where we are now, and

you know that's Marshall Goldsmith says, to get from where we are not to where we want to be, it takes
that attention to the things we're not particularly good at. And that's really what competence, or that
striving for competence addresses.
Travis: Right.
Frank: And what's cool about it is its really good for business.
Travis: Yeah, I agree. And when the leader is out there doing it themselves, especially in the start-up
phase--
Travis: It was very illustrative because it was crystal clear to everyone what we all viewed as
excellence.
Travis: Because excellence and a product or service can be somewhat subjective.
Frank: Yeah, that's right.
Travis: And so, when you have a light-hearted, ribbing, fun contest and everyone is drawing direct
comparisons, then it's very illustrative. And then also, it empowers you as a leader because the people
want to follow someone that has a high-level of competence within the field that they're leading.
Frank: Yeah, and I bet you, if I interview those folks, they’d say that Travis busted his butt more than
the rest of us, and that you set that tone.
Travis: Yeah, we used to have a saying and I tell them, if I'm running 20 miles an hour, you better be
running 18 right behind me.
Travis: And those people stayed with me for 20 years.
Frank: Yeah, and there you go, that's the testament to you. And when we think about your trajectory,
you created this company out of your mind and people that you're around, that's at autonomy piece.
Every day you went to work and tried to be better, and you're gaining personal satisfaction and your
company is succeeding.
Travis: Right. Definitely makes sense.

Frank: So that's confidence, yeah.
Travis: Now connection, that kind of bleeds over into the category of what we were just talking about,
you want to walk me down that path?
Travis: Yeah, that's right. So I love what you said, that this kind of ribbing. What it tells me and I'm not
really, I haven't met you before, what it tells me you probably have some sense of just knowing how
people work, some of kind emotional intelligence, kind of empathy and all the rest. And that's really
important in a leader because if you're going to set a high standard, but maybe you don't have some of
those people skills, then that's going to burn the group out really quick. And so that kind of connection's
kind of-- I use the connection word just because it flows well. But some other folks use the word
relatedness and that means that you're actually relating with people. It's just not connecting, it's
relating, it's having conversations. They know that you got their back and vice versa. When I was a
paramedic we're in super high stress environments, always striving to do better, but we knew part of
the magical thing about being in that kind of world is that you know that there's people around you to
have your back, and that they believe in you and they support you and all the rest. So the trick is to
create that environment where the standards are really high, where you're prodding folks on and yet
they know that you're kind of one of them and that you're not lording your position over there. And that
you value their feedback, and that you take their feedback as a leader without becoming defensive, and
again that requires a high level of differentiation on a leader because feedback hurts, let's face it,
especially when it's negative. And so, again, just kind of creating those opportunities for people to come
together. And when that happens, innovation occurs, motivation occurs, that longevity that you
described in your company. Humans, we're made to connect, magic happens when we connect. And
so that connection piece, they're all critical, but without that a business, it won't survive in the long run.
If want to kill a business, I think office space, right, points it out in Technicolor.
Travis: Right.
Frank: Put everybody in a cubicle and have the guy at the end of the line with a bullhorn, and that will
kill people.
Travis: Right.
Frank: And so, one of the things I encourage and it sounds kind of goofy but everybody does it and
some people are kind of cynical about it. But we need kind of those times where we just disconnect
from work but connect with each other, whether it's cocktail hour, whether it's fantasy football, whatever
fits the culture. Because those are times where the bonds really get formed strong and there's a saying
that we don't have wars with people we eat with. So again, that connection, we can connect on work,

we can connect out of work. But again, it's kind of up to the leader to kind of set the environment for
national associations to occur as well as kind of more formal ones. Because then that just solidifies the
glue of everything else in a sense.
Travis: Yeah, I agree with you. You know, one of the things that I noticed is, so, I've had times in my
life where I'm in a state of flow where I'm so on that it's just incredible. And it could be with a sport, it
could be with an activity. I'm one of those people that you described earlier, that I'm constantly working
on my weaknesses. And when I get good at something, I have a knack for getting extremely good at it.
And so, I can achieve a state of flow quite regularly and things that I have a high-level of competence
in. And one thing that I've noticed when my business has these elements that you're talking about, the
business achieves a state of flow, does that make sense?
Frank: Yeah. It makes complete sense. In fact, that's what's interesting, is this applies to the
individuals, we can use it for personal development. But when you have large components of an
organization that are also in that state of, if you want to call it flow, it is remarkable what happens to the
larger group. And again, that comes down to each person pursuing kind of within set parameters what
they're passionate about, they're committed to becoming better at it. You're spot on, and as a
consultant I see that all the time and you saw it as an owner. And even see it with just my business
partner. There's moments like one-hand clapping, or whatever you want--
Travis: Yeah, exactly.
Frank: You're on the same wavelength and we leave a meeting, and we're just like, "Oh my gosh." I'll
get attachments like, ”You people is awesome, I love you.”
Travis: Yeah, it’s new thinking, it's doing in tandem together as one, thinking as one.
Travis: Yeah. So you can get in a state of flow with people, with a group, with a business personally,
and when you get there it's just insane. Can you hear me?
Frank: Absolutely.
Travis: Did I lose you Frank?
Frank: Yeah, I can hear you now.
Travis: We're broadcasting so much energy here that we're just shorting out the connections.
Frank: That's right, exactly.

Travis: Dial it down over there Frank.
Frank: Dial it down; we're going to keep it under between the navigational beacons--
Travis: Right.
Frank: Yeah, and I think it really does come from that set, kind of above this all, it's kind of setting that
vision. And, here's a great, I don't know-- Are you an outdoors person or anything?
Travis: Yeah, somewhat.
Frank: Okay. Well, there's a guy, I love this story. And he’s name is Dana, I forget his first name, but
he owned Dana Designs which was a very high-end backpack company years ago. They make
backpack. And then he changed company, started a new one that just made tactical packs for military
personnel. And it's interesting because he has a very flexible work pattern because he's based out on
Montana, and he understands his labor force are all outdoor athletes and being an outdoor athlete,
there's sometimes, I don't want to go to work because the slopes are really good, or the temperature is
good for climbing and he recognized that about his workers. And so he gives them a lot leeway to bring
animals to work, to kind of set their workflow as long as they need objectives. But what keeps them
motivated is he preaches to them or talks to them every day if not every week about what they're doing.
And what they're doing is they're not creating backpacks, they are creating something that saves lives
when military personnel are in Afghanistan, or when they're rescuing people in Katrina, or when they're
responding to some kind of other natural disaster. And so, that's what motivates these folks even
though these athletic kind of folks, they have a lot of interest outside of work, they come to work and
they're just pumped and motivated all because they body in to that vision. So you set that vision at the
top and that's what creates that flow.
Travis: That's brilliant.
Frank: That starts the flow process and then those other three components go into it.
Travis: Yeah, exactly. You know, centering on behavioral science, I'm going to put you on the spot. Do
you remember an experiment, and I may ruin the name on this, I may pronounce it wrong or remember
it incorrectly, but I believe it's called the Milgram's experiment.
Frank: Experiment, okay.
Travis: Yeah.
Frank: I'm familiar with that number his so tell me the one that you're referring to?

Travis: The one where he has people administer shocks.
Frank: The shocks, that's right.
Travis: Yeah.
Frank: That's the most famous one.
Travis: And it blows my mind and I think it's worth talking about for a minute because then I want to
walk you down a path of some other things that hold us back personally.
Frank: Yeah, exactly.
Travis: But with his experiment, he showed that with a person in the room of authority that random
people would deliver levels of shock treatment to someone in another room but they could not see. And
at first it was inconsequential, very small amount, and as it elevated people were screaming, even to
the point to where they knew that they were administering lethal doses of shocks to these people. An
alarmingly high number of people went ahead and delivered this fatal shock because they refuse to go
against the authority figure standing in the room. And that says so much about people's attitude or
behavior, it just blew me away, did that blow you away?
Frank: Yeah, except from studying humans for the last 20 years, it's not surprising, and I think we can
apply to business as well. And that really, I'll get to that point in a second, it's not surprising because
when we find ourselves in a situation where we are encouraged to do something that may seem
unethical and yet we're assured that there's powers above us that are encouraging us to do it, and it's
okay, and all the rest, really bad behavior can happen. That's the reason why it's those at the top that
establish the culture. The Milgram experiment, it's very easy to kind of make parallels between that and
ENRON, right, where you have folks at the very top doing all kinds of shady dealings, and that kind of
cutting corners and unethical behavior trickles down. And that incentivizes bad behavior, lower down
the organization. So it comes down to that vast majority of humans are very-- We need leaders, we just
need leaders. We need to understand the way the world works, we need parameters around our
behavior, and to understand our place in the world. And that's not an [Unintelligible 00:38:38] thing or
anything, it's just the reality thing.
Travis: Right.
Frank: I mean, heaven sakes, I need that in my life. Certainly on the home front at times, like, "How do
I deal with my child, I'm not sure, I need an expert to tell me what do." And if I trust them, right?
Travis: Right.

Frank: Can I trust them or I'm not communicating adequately, give me a coach and tell me what I need
to do. And so, we can be experts in certain things but not in all things. And it's in those moments where
an influence comes in to our lives that could really direct us in one way or the other. And again, that
really emphasizes the importance of what I'm calling these connections. So those connections are
healthy, we can go to the stratosphere. If they're unhealthy, we can do some really bad things.
Travis: We can go the opposite direction that we want to go in.
Frank: That's right, that's right.
Travis: I guess that experiment shouldn't surprise you but it blew me away.
Frank: Yeah, unfortunately it doesn't surprise me.
Travis: Because I would've bet a large sum of money that a very small percent would've went through
with it. And I want to say that something like 60% or 70% of the people went through with delivering the
lethal dose of shock treatment.
Frank: Yeah, but we see this all the time. You think about, and I'm not getting political, but you think
about the run up to going into indoor rack. There was lots of information that some of the arguments
that were being made were not accurate but because of the emotions and all the rest, nobody really
sort of stood up and said, "Wait a minute, maybe we need to reconsider." And so, especially when the
stakes are high and there's urgency, especially urgency and that pressure, dissonant voices do tend to
alienate or pushed out.
Travis: Right.
Frank: And we see it in work teams and all this.
Travis: Right. So let me ask you, let's transition to I think what holds a lot of people back from really
achieving the dreams is themselves. Would you mind going down that path and talking about some of
the common things that prevent people from reaching their true potential?
Frank: Yeah, sure. One of them is fear, and I know that sounds a bit clichéd but my solution is it tends
to be-- Well, it's well-known in counseling circles but unfortunately doesn't percolate out into popular
media. Forgive me if you've ever asked this question, but one of the questions I hate people to ask is
"What would you do if you had no fear?" The better question to ask is what would you do if you could
do that despite the presence of fear? As a climber and I work with athletes, quite a few athletes,
especially outdoor athletes. When I stand at the base of a tall climb and I've never been on it before, I
have trepidation. And there's not a climber I know out there that doesn't. And yet we move forward in
the direction of the summit because, "Holy cow, that's what we do, and we're so energized and that's

our passion." And so, one of the things I like especially in the personal development side of things, but I
miss the fear with executives is recognizing that fear is an ever present companion to us. And if we
pretend it's not, we're lying, there's obviously, sometimes we can overcome fear, and we be all have
done that. But there's some fears that are so deeply abiding, maybe it's the fear of inadequacy, maybe
it's the fear of the unknown, the risk, and all of that, that's holding us back. Recognizing we can still
move in the direction of our goal, of our dream, even though from time to time we feel dread. And so my
wife is a therapist and she talks about sitting with our fear, recognizing that our fear is not us, it's just
our thoughts. Who we are as our values, and our dreams, and our goals, and our passions. And so
when the fear comes in, recognize it, don't fight with it, set it aside, and keep moving in the direction of
what we want to do. So that's the one thing. The other thing is, another thing that holds us back, and I
have experiences in my life, is excessive planning where we think, "Oh my gosh, okay, I've got to have
the organizational chart, and plan, and everything done. I've got to have my business plan completely
vetted, and I'm a huge fan of business plans but you know where I'm saying.
Travis: I do.
Frank: Everything has got to be perfect, I've got to have my website up and it's got every single link. I
have to triple check because if somebody clicks on anything it's going to hurt my Google Analytics and
all--
Travis: Yeah, perfectionism.
Frank: Yeah, perfectionism just holds you back. And so at some point you got to launch. And like we
said earlier, it's action that brings in the money, and it's action that makes an impact in the world. So
again, not to say due diligence is not important, it's essential. But at some point you got to get moving.
And if that is one’s weakness, one of the ways to get around that is getting a coach but maybe getting a
partner. That maybe is really good on the action side but not so good on the planning side. I'm a huge
believer in forming, even for small ventures, it's blogging even. Start writing with somebody else and
you can double the amount that you can put out. And so supplementing some of your weaknesses with
somebody else.
Travis: Right.
Frank: In the long run you're going to have to work on them to try to overcome them. And then another
thing that holds folks back, so fear and kind of that excessive-obsessive planning. I love it that you said
perfectionism. Perfectionism is one of the number things that keeps us from achieving really what we
can do in life. Because we're so worried about being perfect it paralyzes us. The other things is that,
that was a real challenge for me in starting kind of my business was moving into a brand new space,
playing in a new area is not knowing anyone. So really, highly encourage your entrepreneurs starting

out to start forming these connections. Both strong connections-- There's two types of connections
social scientist talk about, strong and weak. Strong connections are critical because those are the ones,
when you stumble and fall, they're the ones who are going to pick you up. Those are those
connections, those are those relationships that you engage with maybe every week or everyday maybe
at the beginning. But you also need to form those weak connections and those are folks that you
occasionally engage with, but those are the ones who have connections to a much wider network. And
so you engage with them, provide some value, they provide value to you and it spreads your network
that way.
Travis: Is that the weak connection that you're talking about there?
Frank: That's the weak connections, yeah.
Travis: Okay.
Frank: Because think about it in your own personal life. All of your really, if I can say intimate friends,
close friends, you guys probably all just-- You know each other, but it's like me talking to you, it's been
great to get to know you, but I didn't know you beforehand and you have a big network out there, I have
a network on my side, and all of a sudden now we've made this connection.
Travis: Right.
Frank: And so it's reaching out and forming, it is like what Barry Davenport did with me, I'm inspired by
her because she such a great connector. And that takes courage. And so reaching out, the worst
anybody can say when you reach out to form a connection is no.
Travis: Right.
Frank: And that's all they can say. And then you just move on. Yeah, so forming those weak
connections in the field, in the area that you want to play in.
Travis: Of like-minded people?
Frank: Of like-minded people. But on that note, even for a start-up entrepreneur, in an area that maybe
doesn't seem like you would have a board of directors or anything. Even for as sole practitioner, they
need to start thinking of themselves as a CEO of their life and their business even though it's one. And
what do all CEO's have behind them? A board of directors.
Travis: Right.

Frank: Whether it's a formal or informal board of directors, start creating that board around you. And
this is one of the most exciting innovations that I just kind of stumbled on, is helping people kind of
create those boards of directors around them. I call them passion groups, you can call them whatever
you want. But having them identify folks that they might want to gain feedback from and then creating a
time that they can get together. And then as in feed in to each other, and then that all of a sudden
becomes your advisory board, even if you're just a solo practitioner. But when you become incredible
successful, guess what, they've been part of the team. And then you have that in a sense, board to
help you go on.
Travis: Yeah, I completely agree with you.
Frank: So I buy my board of directors. I have friends or colleagues, I don't pay them but I'll get them a
case of wine each year, or sign them up for a wine club, or a food club, or something like that. Knowing
what really jazzes them in life, provide them some benefits, and usually they invite me over to have the
wine. So it worked out for all of us.
Travis: So win-win.
Frank: But it's that give and take, it's about, I know that word authenticity is so overblown these days.
But it's about being authentic, being who you are, and bring people around you that can feed into you
and you into them. And like I say, just magic happens. So it's that fear, just get moving, go from
planning to action, get that team around you and form those weak connections out there.
Travis: Right. So I want to go back and go over each one of these.
Frank: Yeah, you bet.
Travis: And it correlates some of the things that's happened in my life. And so for me as a young man,
first let me say that until I got into my 40's I naively thought bravery was the absence of fear. One day I
was at an event and it hit me like a ton of bricks when a guy set it on stage, he says, "Bravery is not the
absence of fear, it's the ability to move forward in the presence of fear."
Travis: And that was powerful for me and allowed me to let some things go on some personal levels.
And 40 years old, that's kind of embarrassing. But one thing that helped me as a young man, a very
young kid, is I learned to despise fear. And so I try to reserve the word hate, I try not to use that word
because it's such a negative word. But as a young man I hated fear. And the one good thing to come
out of that is when I sensed it, the presence of it, I automatically forced myself to walk towards it. And
that enabled me to accomplish some incredible things in my life coming from a background with a very

tough neighborhood, no money, no education, all of those things. Everything against me as a young
man allowed me to overcome because I walked towards that fear and addressed it head on and fought
it for what I believed in. That's been a key part in my success. And so, I don't think we can understate
the importance of fear and how you outlined it there, so I appreciate that.
Frank: Yeah, you nailed it with two comments, or with two observations about your life is you walked
towards fear but what enabled you to walk towards fear?
Travis: I was a little kid, smaller than all of the other kids.
Frank: Yeah, sure.
Travis: At one phase of my life. And so I was a late bloomer. And I put up with abuse and stuff that I
didn't feel like I needed to put up. And then I reached a turning point in my life to where I wasn't going to
let that happen anymore. So that it was a negative even that happened that caused me to hate fear, is
that what you're asking?
Frank: Yeah. And that's what happens, is not allowing fear to control us is a choice. That sounds
clichéd and simple but it's ultimately a choice. But what you said that, "I move towards fear because I
was going to do something I believed in." And I'm paraphrasing but that's what it was, is you have this
goal, you knew who you were, and you're like, "To heck with you fear, this is the direction I'm going, I'm
not going to let you stop me." I think sometimes what holds us back in life is we don't really know who
we are. And you're a testament to discovering who you are and what you want, and it's at that point that
we can say, "Yup, fear is not going to hold me back".
Travis: Right. And just taking the steps is what you need because there were many missed steps along
the way but I just continue to take the steps. And that clarity for me, it's kind of like stairs, the clarity for
the 15th step a lot of times doesn't happen until you get to the 14th step.
Travis: And so a lot of people don't realize that. And it's a discovery that I've made because I spend a
lot of time looking at myself and my actions and why I do what it is that I do. And I like to try and
illustrate these things as much as possible to spur everybody else to think about how it affects them in
their life, right.
Travis: Now, the excessive planning, there's a paradox there because I am a perfectionist on some
levels yet I can let a document go out that has misspelled words.

Frank: Right.
Travis: And so I think a lot of people believe that perfectionist is everything, right?
Travis: That you're a perfectionist on every single thing. Whereas, I think it's important to say you can
be a perfectionist on certain things too much. And it still have a big, negative impact on you, right?
Frank: Oh yes, that's right. We're all going to be good at certain things and not so good at other things.
The trick is to figure out what are those areas where you've got to be spot on.
Travis: Right.
Frank: So, for instance, for those of us who write, the spelling and that is actually really important.
Travis: Right.
Frank: I have friends; I have a number of clients who are actually in the construction world. I don't
expect the same kind of thing from them and they don't give it, and that's not what's important because
that's not their world. I speak professionally. I have to be really anal retentive about that. But maybe on
the contract side, that's why I hire somebody to help with contract because I'm not that anal about, and
I'm just not that good at those kinds of details.
Travis: Right.
Frank: Yeah, so it's like figuring out those absolutely got to have things and then letting those other
things that are not quite so important, either don't devote as much of that anal retentive commitment to
those, or get somebody else to do it, like in the area of contracts that they got to be perfect. But still I
would say, perfectionism, you've got to recognize though is that perfectionism is still unattainable. And
that it really is just that relentless pursuit of getting better. And at some point we got to get to action.
Travis: Right.
Frank: When I was starting out, speaking, I would tape every talk and go back and critic, and all the--
And it made me a better speaker, and I do focus groups and all the rest. But at some point you just got
to get on the stage, and every single talk I'm going to fumble a word or two. You know what, it just
doesn't sticking matter because the larger message impacts the audience.
Travis: You and I have both lived long enough and to where we've seen people in the 80's that spoke
in a very perfect projecting, almost as if they're in a theater. Whereas-- Frank Niles, welcome to the
show. And I'm not knocking that but those days are gone.

Frank: They are.
Travis: And that radio broadcasting thing is not authentic, and today if you are not-- I don't think
authenticity is over used. I think if you're not authentic today, if you're not making connections with
people you're going to be in trouble.
Frank: That's right. Spot on. And I think now, especially as the population, as younger folks move in to
the workplace and all the rest, they're acutely aware of inauthenticity. There's one other thing that's
great about being on a college campus is you cannot rely upon BS anymore. Just with the amount of
information and everything out there, these kids will, they will crucify you for it. And they're very
cognizant of it. So, you're exactly right.
Travis: Now, I want to go down the path of the strong connections and the weak connections. I
completely agree with you. Really at all levels of entrepreneurship, the only people that really
understand where you're coming from is fellow entrepreneurs.
Frank: Yup, that's right.
Travis: And so, in my opinion, you need to surround yourself with fellow entrepreneurs as often as
possible, and then even your close inner circle, if you can add some people that are specifically in your
industry that can help give you some guidance. And I then I think you also need some people that are
not in your industry so that you're not copying and doing the same thing that everybody else is doing,
there's some diversity going on there to where you're getting some good, clear, concise advise from
people that don't have a vested interest, right.
Frank: No, absolutely. Yeah, you want to surround yourself with folks that have kind of walked that
pathway before. So you want a wide range of relationships. So in your industry that's right. It's
invaluable to take the brains of, and again, just go out for coffee. In my experience, people that are
really successful in a particular area, they're eager to share and give back to those who are starting out.
And the first time I did that though it took a lot of courage. I'm an adult professional and all the rest and
I'm sitting on the phone doing about 5 false dials and all the rest because you're so nervous. And low
and behold, the guys says, "Hey, let's go out and get some coffee."
Travis: Yeah.
Frank: And so, you're exactly right, surround yourself with people that have gone before you are but
also, I'm a huge believer in cross-fertilization of ideas, and getting people outside your industry that can
provide kind of a fresh perspective, and they don't know the lingo, and all the rest. And they kind of spur
you to think in ways that you've never thought of before.

Travis: Right. And that's where some great innovation comes from.
Travis: So we could classify our connection as a weak connection, not to degrade it.
Frank: Yeah, weak doesn't mean bad.
Travis: Right. But the power that is incredible, even just with me doing the show, I've been a member
and I am a member of several high-end masterminds. And the show's been more powerful than all the
masterminds because of the incredible amount of connections that I've made.
Frank: Yeah.
Travis: Whereas with our connection with me and you, you could text me at 8 o'clock at night and ask
me a question, you know.
Travis: There's a very good chance you'll get my response within a matter of minutes. And those
things, I want to drive that point home about the strong and the weak connections, the more support
you have around you be selective about where you get your advice from. I think there should be a tax
on people giving advise that haven't lived it or don't know what they're talking about because it
frustrates me.
Frank: Yeah. And I would add one other thing to it, I would underscore 50 times your suggestion to
surround yourself with entrepreneurs. Surround yourself with positive people. Avoid those energy
vampires in our lives that suck the life out of us.
Travis: Right.
Frank: Because starting a new venture is risky, sometimes. Especially if it's the first one that you've
done, and you're scared, and all the rest, you're just trying to figure it out. The last thing you need is
have those folks go, "Yeah, but this could happen, have you thought about this?" And we need honest,
authentic, real feedback, but from people that are actually committed to you and then like you said, that
have actually been successful in life.
Travis: Right.
Frank: At least in my experiences, those who are saying, the what if's, those are the ones who haven't
been successful.

Travis: And a lot of times they're your family.
Travis: None of my family wanted me to start my first of business. All of them thought it was a horrible
idea. And 15 years into it, everyone had a piece of helping me get started in the story they tell. And now
they love me, and I know they love me and I don't understand how their memory is so poor. When
people love you they don't want to see you get hurt so they try to steer you away from stuff, and they
really may not have enough information to give you the advice, whereas someone that's walked down
that path can get you much more concise advice on what you should or should not do, right.
Frank: Absolutely, 100%. Seek out those people that have actually been successful, or at least be
active and emerging in your field, creating your space.
Travis: Right. There you go. Hey, let's transition over to the lightning round, are you ready for that?
Frank: You bet, I am ready.
Travis: Alright. So what book or program made an impact on you related to business that you'd
recommend and why?
Frank: I've read a ton of business books and they're all great. But one book that really left an impact on
me and it's a book that I suggest to all of my coaching clients is Viktor Frankl's of course, Man's Search
for Meaning. Many of us have read it, it's an important book to go back and read from time to time. And
the reason why it was so influential in my life is here's this guy-- You probably this story, he's in a
concentration camp and he's a Jew and he's in a Nazi concentration camp. The worse place you can
possibly be on the planet. And it dawned on him that we can't wait, because he didn't know if he was
going to live the next day. And so, we create meaning in our lives or everyday experiences. We can
create meaning, we don't discover meaning, and we create meaning. And that means we have to be
living in the present moment and we're the ones who can create the change, and we can actually be
active participants in history. And that was really encouraging to me as I was starting my speaking
business, and consulting business, and all the rest because you're waiting for contacts to come to you
rather than the other way around. And I had read Frankel's book before but as I read it now with a new
set of lenses on, it's like, "Man, let's just get out there, let's go out there. Speak everywhere for free or
not, and start making those connections, create the meaning today." So I encourage every person,
every leader to read that book. It's very short, and it really encourages us to rethink sometimes the
approach we take to life. Rather than waiting for things to happen and waiting for the train to come in,
rather to create the meaning in our everyday experiences.

Travis: Right. Isn't that interesting how you can read something years later and it means something
completely different?
Frank: Yeah. We have to think it before we can become it. And I think sometimes when we start
thinking like, "Oh, I'm going to be this person now." It changes the way in which we view everything in
the world. We start seeing opportunities popping out of the woodwork. And then we read a book like
this and we see it with a new set of lenses and perceptions on.
Travis: Right, excellent. What's one of your favorite tools or pieces of technology that you've recently
discovered, if any, that you'd recommend to other business owners?
Frank: Yeah, you bet. I'm not a big technology guy so this is actually a really relevant question to me.
Because I like it, it's got to be simple, intuitive, and doesn't take me too long to learn, but it's got to be
kind of fresh because technology sometimes can get in the way of the message. And I think I'm
especially attuned to that because that's what I primarily do, is engage in communication. And so, when
I need to use a technology tool to facilitate communication I love Prezi. It gets away from that kind of
stale, kind of PowerPoint, unidimensional, flat kind of presentation format so I love that. And then for
creating these passion groups that I've talked about, or just connecting with people around the world
and forming mastermind groups and all the rest, Google Hangout is great for that for meetings.
Travis: Cool.
Frank: So I can see people, they can see each other. And so, most of your audience is probably quite
familiar with those. But hey, I'm a late bloomer when it comes to technology. So, I'm wow-ed by those
kinds of things you know. So I found them very, very helpful.
Travis: So you said Prezi, can you spell that?
Frank: Yeah, P-r-e-z-i.
Travis: Okay.
Frank: And it's a cloud-based, it's free, you can sign up for their service. But it also forces you to tell the
story of your presentation. It's a story format, and it's 3-dimensional, it's incredible.
Travis: Very cool, I'm going to have to check it out.
Frank: Check it out, it is really neat. Let me know how it works for you, seriously, it's pretty cool. I've
become kind of an evangelist for them.
Travis: Hey, what famous quote would best summarize your belief or attitude in business?

Frank: Yeah, let me give you the quick back-story and I'll tell you how I kind of came to this quote. I'd
read Malcolm Gladwell's book on Outliers, have you read that?
Travis: Yes.
Frank: Okay. So, he talked about 10,000 hour rule in there and all the rest. And there was a
conference, and I mentioned that my wife is a therapist. There is a psychology conference and the key
note was being given by this guy by the name of K. Anders Ericcson. He was the actual individual who
discovered through his research the 10,000-hour rule that was popularized by Gladwell among others.
So I'm like, "Heck, I'm going to go with you to your conference", first time in 10 years because I want to
meet this guy. And again it's one of those kind of weak connection things. So I went there and we
ended up having a number of extended conversations just about performance and excellence, and all
the rest. And so it forced me to start kind of reading some of his academic work. And I came across this
quote and he says this. It's a long quote but he says, "When it comes to choosing a life path, you
should do what you love because if you don't do what you love, you're unlikely to work hard enough to
get very good at it."
There's some folks that say, "Don't worry about following your passion, that's just a pipe dream and that
a luxury--" Just do something, maybe you heard that from your parents when you're talking about
starting your business, do something practical. But if you're going to become really great at something,
it takes a heck of a lot of work. It takes a lot of late nights. it takes a lot of missing some family
gatherings. And we're only going to be motivated to do that when we love, or passionate about what
we're doing.
Travis: Right. Yeah, a lot of wisdom in that quote, I agree 100%. Man you're brilliant Frank, I've
enjoyed hanging out with you and going deep on some of these things.
Frank: Are you there?
Travis: We could go on. Hey, can you hear me? Frank?
Frank: Yes, we could, yeah I can hear you.
Travis: Yeah, sorry about that. You know, this connection's normally pretty consistent, so dial it down
over there Frank.
Frank: --good on this side so I don't know. You know, the energy coming from you.
Travis: Yeah, sorry about stepping on you, I wanted to tell you you're absolutely brilliant, I thoroughly
enjoy speaking with you and going deep, and you sharing all of your wisdom and knowledge with us.

Frank: Oh, my pleasure. It is so fun to share with people what you love to do, you know.
End of Interview
Travis: Yeah. Okay, so we ran a little long in the conversation, there were so many great things to talk
about with Frank that I forgot to ask him to give us the best way to connect with him. And his website is
FrankNiles.com and of course I'm going to place that in the show notes. As a matter of fact, I want to
remind you that all of the books, the resources, everything that we mentioned today. You can go to
rockstarentrepreneur.com

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a fraction of its normal cost.
Here's what to expect. We'll Schedule a 'One on One' private session, where we'll take the time to dive
deep into your business and tell you what is missing, so that you can have your best year ever!
We'll do this by performing a S.W.O.T. Analysis. This tells us your Strengths, Weaknesses,
Opportunities and Threats within your business.
This will be an eye opener for YOU, for several reasons, however some of the most common reasons
are.
As the 'Business Owner' it’s difficult to see the big picture of your own business because you’re in the
middle of a daily management.
And you are too emotionally involved to completely impartial.
This is a common problem for EVERY business owner. It doesn’t matter if you are a one-man army, or
an army of 150, the problem is still the same.
Travis Lane Jenkins
Business Mentor-Turn Around Specialist
Radio Host of The Entrepreneurs Radio Show
“Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs That Grow Your Business"

The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 073 Frank Niles

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